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Shocked

Is "Brent the Rhodes Man" serious in the question about a good God doing bad things? In his answer, he says a couple times, that atheism is "reasonable", and even academically "acceptable"? Is he serious?? No absolute proof that God exists? This is a student of theology? Good stuff so far on the website. This remark stunned me.

Wayne

Yes, His followers are meek, merciful and kindhearted. But like any loving father, when his home is attacked, he puts meekness down:

"... the gospel truth is never so accommodating. John the Baptist was ferocious with the Pharisees (Mt 3:7-8), Jesus trounced Peter when he tried to interfere with the His mission, (Mt 16:22-23) and Paul was willing to publicly rebuke hypocrisy, even when committed by a respected disciple (Gal 2:11-14). To be sure, there is a place for gentleness. But never at the expense of truth."

Jeffrey Garner

Wayne, I agree. And i find it interesting that in each case mentioned (Pharisees, Peter, and 'respected disciple') we are dealing with insiders and their attitudes and conduct and understanding of Jesus mission. I don't see where, I could be missing something, we'll i know i am missing something :-). but I don't see where arrogance ever plays a role in addressing the unbeliever and the sinner. Jesus vociferously attacks those who claim to know him, his mission and his teachings. But when its the skeptic Thomas, or the sinful adulterous woman or the Philosophers on Mars Hill. The approach is different.

Jeffrey Garner

Shocked, yes Brent the Rhodes Scholar is serious. I appreciate what he is doing. He is guarding the faith as a faith and not letting it digress to facts and proofs. John Dewey says, “The quest for certainty has always been an effort to transcend belief.”

Wayne

Jeff, What then of the ungodly who hold a cloak up of spirituality? Is this not false doctrine? Gay pastors trying to reinterpret the Text and actually claim God smiles on homosexuality. You are right about the sinner -- when that one is ignorant, hungry, acknowledging a need for help. Shouldn't the stiffnecked be rebuked? In Isaiah God rebuked another King for "strutting his stuff" against Hezekiah.

You're right about emphasizing love more. It can't be over-corrected. We don't want to be identified with what we're against more than the good news that we are for. Bless you.

Shocked

Faith is more than pulling a rabbit from a habit. It's more than believing in hocus pocus. It is true and ulimate reality. Otherwise, we are just going along with their show -- that there is a compartmentalization between the two: reality and faith. This is a pernicious lie that we don't need to be taken captive by.

I don't think Brent the Rhodes really believes that statement, and was simply compromising what he saw as a much smaller truth, to gain credibility to address the larger truth.

Atheism is, in fact, not reasonable. With respect, I would say a Deist holds a reasonable position, or even an agnostic -- but not an atheist. An atheist is a fool (loving Scripture language). They hold to a truth claim that can't be proven by their own law. His design is plain to them so they are without excuse (Romans 1). It's quite obvious there is a designer and we shouldn't give any ground on that.

I expect postured academia from other ranks, but not from our own.

Jeffrey Garner

Wayne,

This post isnt about the ungodly who hold up a cloak of spirituality. This post is about is Jesus Christ the only way? When did we start talking about Gay Pastors and Stiffnecked? Man, that was a huge leap! If you can direct me to your blog I would be happy to interact with the questions you raise on your blog. But this is way out of context. you are talking about "Christians" who practice homosexuality. I am talking about "unbelievers" who think that Jesus and his church is a sham. We are talking about two categorically different audiences.

Jeffrey Garner

Shocked,

Your post got me to thinking about something i wrote on Sunday. "While faith may provide security, it never is so confident that it ceases to be faith.

I have learned that proof is not truth, and facts never produce faith. Louis Berkhof said, “The revelational encounter…confirms our doubt at the moment that it abolishes it. Because God makes himself known, we know once and for all that God can only be known by God.” God is not confirmed by science, validated by philosophy, substantiated by reason. God is revealed by God. This is what Jesus meant when he said to Peter, “flesh and blood didn’t reveal this to you but my father in heaven.” Yes, the heaven declare the glory of God and the skies show forth his glory. Yes they have a language declaring God, but we are so sinful, so fallen, so far from God that we can't hear, and in fact will ourselves not to hear.

I think that is why God says without faith its impossible to please God. In the moment when we think we have proven our faith it morphs into something else. It becomes science or formula or a predictable equation, but its not faith. And when we don’t need faith, we don’t need God. We, in fact, by removing the mystery, have displaced God with our comprehension. We have become God. We understand all. (or so we think).

My passion is to call people to faith, not comprehension. To call people to revelation and not manipulation. That’s why I keep pointing to God, as seen in the face of Jesus Christ.
"Look, behold, God has come to us!" Our questions and pains and indifferences are portals through which we can catch glimpses of Jesus Christ, and if we can see Jesus, I confess that we are seeing God.

Wayne

Touche.

Wayne

Thanks for the conversation -- how about this?

Jesus to "unbelievers": John 8:12-30. Yes, his is much harsher to the saved than to the unsaved. But neither is he backward about pronouncing truth. "You will die in your sins."

Shocked

I found this to be a powerful statement: "While faith may provide security, it never is so confident that it ceases to be faith."

Science is only testable because of an ordered universe, made by an intentioned Designer. Science doesn't "prove" God, but it sure is one of his biggest witnesses that take the stand for Truth. Yes, some are only comfortable when approaching the Divine with their box of reason... which is simply impossible because "his ways are above our ways, thoughts above our thoughts."

Still, as a Christian, I gain no merit to agree that being an atheist is a "reasonable position." I use Dr. David Berlinski as an example -- a secular Jew/agnostic, who feels the same.

Maybe there's a better way of gaining trustful dialogue with a cynic? I don't believe even Paul, at Mars Hill, took exception to validate the "reasonableness" of their ideas (though he took other very "innovative" approaches to deliver his message)

Shocked

What you said above about faith and reason is simply incredible. Do you have an audio archive of the message?

Jeffrey Garner

www.imgood.com check out the podcasts and www.sflighthouse.com again check out the podcasts. I am not sure if Sundays is up yet, but in all fairness they should be listened to in order since they build off of each other.

Jeffrey Garner

Unbelievers in John 8, must be qualified by Jews. These were no random sinners. These were religious teachers of the Law of God. These men knew every verse on the Messiah. They were witnessing the Son of God in action. They blinked at the miracles, snuffed at the teachings, and quoted Moses and Micah. They were witnessing the greatest moment in the history of the world and they knew it was coming and they still rejected it. Their unbelieving hearts can't be compared to an atheist's heart. And whereas without Christ we all die in our sins, Jesus approach to these bastions of elitism is well deserved.

Wayne

I suppose one could see it this way: a man is walking toward eternal damnation and plugging his ears at the signs for him to stop. You could either get his attention and talk to him about his favorite hobbies in hopes of stirring a relationship so you could "slip in" the Kindgom -- or you could exclaim to him "Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" Both have legitimacy I suppose. Both require love... and both can bear the marks of arrogance if the witness is truly arrogant. God bless both men who have the same goal in mind and may we be humbled by the mission.

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